No Lights of Winter This Year?

[WDWFigment]

WDWMagic is reporting that the Lights of Winter will not be displayed this year.

Many posters from there have 'hijacked' this blog thread, asking about the LoW, in the hopes that Disney will see the backlash, and rethink its decision: ; http://disneyparks.disney.go.com/blog/2 ... y-recap-3/

 

[Roger]

Read someplace else that the theory is that because it wasn't mentioned in the press release then it isn't coming back.

Which is like saying the sky isn't blue because you didn't tell me that it was blue. ; I'll withhold judgment until it actually doesn't come back, but then again, apparently it was the last earth-unfriendly display left, and well, it wouldn't be "green" to have it return.

 

[WDWFigment]

Here's the entire thread on WDWMagic: ; http://forums.wdwmagic.com/showthread.php?t=512090

Posters have reported receiving confirmation from Disney that the lights aren't returning upon contacting Disney, and the lights aren't in the prep area with the rest of the decorations for EPCOT.

I'm not suggesting anyone make judgment one way or the other, but maybe preemptively voice your opinion to Disney that you enjoy the lights and hope they come back. ; I think it's a lot more likely for a decision to be undone at this point rather than 2-3 weeks from now, when they would normally be installed.

 

[mSummers]

I hope they change their minds... I really wanted to get pictures of that this year.

 

[gary]

i just can't believe they would not do these lights because of green, well actually it's a green decision, as in greenbacks, ala country bears, maybe using the going green as an excuse, because once it's gone " while we work on making an environmentely friendly display" it's never coming back
and after a year or two, just a few lonely voices on the wind, sighing, " remember way back when"

 

[Grumpwurst]

i just can't believe they would not do these lights because of green, well actually it's a green decision, as in greenbacks, ala country bears, maybe using the going green as an excuse, because once it's gone " while we work on making an environmentely friendly display" it's never coming back
and after a year or two, just a few lonely voices on the wind, sighing, " remember way back when"

I, personally, can buy the argument that it was removed due to it's Earth-unfriendly nature.

When I was doing my research for the Osborne Family Specticle of Dancing Lights, Disney has stated they have a road map to make it entirely green and do it fast. ; Things that aren't green will be removed if they cannot cost justify the immense expense to go green (aka LED lights).

We are in a new world where corporations don't care what loyal customers think anymore. ; They are now focused on he first time customers and don't care if they come back or not. ; You can yell till you are blue in the face, but if this display has been killed, it's never coming back.

 

[Grumpwurst]

Also, once cap & trade legislation passes (either willingly or forced), expect to see more displays disappear

 

[Paul]

Would they be up by now? ; Maybe someone in the parks could see if they have started installation; is our Chief TMIPer still there?

 

[Roger]

When I was doing my research for the Osborne Family Specticle of Dancing Lights, Disney has stated they have a road map to make it entirely green and do it fast. ; Things that aren't green will be removed if they cannot cost justify the immense expense to go green (aka LED lights).

Considering we're 3 years away from the first of Edison's light bulbs dimming away forever, ; (And they mean it!) I can agree.....The cost of maintaining an older technology light display will go up in the next few years with or without cap and trade. ; Which makes me wonder when Main Street is going to change over.....[nb]I know, they could maintain Main Street forever as those kind of lights are allowed, but with fewer people making the bulbs, costs WILL go up.[/nb]

 

[WDWFigment]

We are in a new world where corporations don't care what loyal customers think anymore. ; They are now focused on he first time customers and don't care if they come back or not. ; You can yell till you are blue in the face, but if this display has been killed, it's never coming back.

I agree with what you're saying, but I think it's a little more complex than that. ; You can't just look at the direct profits reaped from anything in the parks (at least, that's not what you should do). ; Think of the ancillary impact even these 'little touches' have on so many things: ; 1) ; PhotoPass is normally stationed outside the LoW. ; How will significant will a potential decrease in PhotoPass sales be? ; 2) The lights functioned as free advertising for future customers; when researching where to take vacations, people search photos online. ; Inevitably, potential first time guests would have seen pictures of the LoW (were it to be shown), while the lights may not be the single basis for any trips, they are likely a contributing factor for some that pushed them 'over the edge'. ; Without the lights being shown, there will be no such push. ; 3) General goodwill. ; I think that speaks for itself.

Maybe I am naive, but I think 'yelling' still makes a difference. ; WDW has built a significant number of DVC properties in Florida. ; Given that, they cannot afford to alienate that demographic. ; It's not as if that demographic is simply "locked in" once they make the initial DVC membership purchase...

 

[Grumpwurst]

Maybe I am naive, but I think 'yelling' still makes a difference. ; WDW has built a significant number of DVC properties in Florida. ; Given that, they cannot afford to alienate that demographic. ; It's not as if that demographic is simply "locked in" once they make the initial DVC membership purchase...

Disney has made it very clear that they have no desire to keep DVC members happy over their rack-rate paying non-DVC members. ; Once you buy into the DVC you are a guaranteed customer for 45-50 years. ; Their own internal studies showed that right after the terrorist attacks the two groups of ppl that were still coming in large numbers were DVC and AP holders. ; The same two groups that make the loudest noise about not getting any respect. ;

 

[Roger]

Maybe I am naive,

Don't think you are Tom, but...

but I think 'yelling' still makes a difference.

Yes, sometimes, but usually to remove something. ; Yelling didn't change the new IASW.

; WDW has built a significant number of DVC properties in Florida.

And now in California, and Hawaii, and in the past in South Carolina. ; If rumors are true, I'd expect one in Texas[nb]The rumors refuse to die and I hear it from multiple sources in the know without even being prompted.[/nb] within 5 years as well.

Given that, they cannot afford to alienate that demographic.

DVC is to WDW as APs are to DL. ; Unfortunately they've reached a boiling point with them, and they're not as ... desirable as other guests. ;

It's not as if that demographic is simply "locked in" once they make the initial DVC membership purchase...

; Yes, but Disney is going to think so.

They're going to cater to the non-AP, non-DVC guests as much as possible. ; Which is why they are pulling their hair out trying to figure out how to allocate FastPass for the World of Color in the Spring. ; They *KNOW* that every local AP is going to go opening week to see it. ; And if it's a hit, there will be repeat viewing by those APs.[nb]I'm guessing they'll come out with a special sneak preview showings, with AP tickets being allocated...so long as it doesn't become a Light Tragic, things will be fine, except for the repeat viewers.....[/nb]

Which is also why FastPass[nb]Unless they fix it[/nb] will eventually go away; Disneyland stopped FastPass on many rides because it was used mainly by the APs, who got all of the passes for the day to the chagrin of the day-ticketers.

 

[Roger]

The same two groups that make the loudest noise about not getting any respect.

They do?[nb]See Tragic, Light.[/nb]

I wonder why?[nb]Ibid[/nb]

 

[WDWFigment]

Disney has made it very clear that they have no desire to keep DVC members happy over their rack-rate paying non-DVC members. ; Once you buy into the DVC you are a guaranteed customer for 45-50 years. ; Their own internal studies showed that right after the terrorist attacks the two groups of ppl that were still coming in large numbers were DVC and AP holders. ; The same two groups that make the loudest noise about not getting any respect. ;

You are not a guaranteed customer once you buy into DVC. ; You can sell DVC, default on your loan (if you have one), pay your dues but not use DVC, pay your dues and go elsewhere. ; The initial up front money Disney receives is great for it, but it also wants those members to spend money in the parks. ; Unsatisfied DVC members aren't going to spend as much money.

This is the first I've heard of those studies. ; I don't exactly think that's an analogous comparison. ; After 9/11, people stopped traveling because of a fear of traveling. ; Disney didn't cause that. ; Disney, however, directly impacts the quality of its own parks. ; DVC members may continue to come in both instances, but I think in the latter circumstance, they (some, at least), will 'voice' their displeasure by spending less.

I am not saying DVC or AP members matter more than first time guests. ; Doing so would be insane. ; Obviously first timers matter much, much more. ; However, both groups matter. ; Disney cannot simply forsake one demographic and rely on another, because doing so will cause it to slip. ; Even a slight slip matters from a business perspective.[nb]I would liken this discussion to the debate of whether Harry Potter matters to WDW. ; I've seen people argue that, at most, people will only go to Universal for a couple of days instead of Disney, so it won't matter. ; Two days out of a seven day trip may seem like Disney is still winning, but it's losing footing. ; That matters.[/nb]

 

[WDWFigment]

Don't think you are Tom, but...
Yes, sometimes, but usually to remove something. ; Yelling didn't change the new IASW.
And now in California, and Hawaii, and in the past in South Carolina. ; If rumors are true, I'd expect one in Texas[nb]The rumors refuse to die and I hear it from multiple sources in the know without even being prompted.[/nb] within 5 years as well.
DVC is to WDW as APs are to DL. ; Unfortunately they've reached a boiling point with them, and they're not as ... desirable as other guests. ;
; Yes, but Disney is going to think so.

They're going to cater to the non-AP, non-DVC guests as much as possible. ; Which is why they are pulling their hair out trying to figure out how to allocate FastPass for the World of Color in the Spring. ; They *KNOW* that every local AP is going to go opening week to see it. ; And if it's a hit, there will be repeat viewing by those APs.[nb]I'm guessing they'll come out with a special sneak preview showings, with AP tickets being allocated...so long as it doesn't become a Light Tragic, things will be fine, except for the repeat viewers.....[/nb]

Which is also why FastPass[nb]Unless they fix it[/nb] will eventually go away; Disneyland stopped FastPass on many rides because it was used mainly by the APs, who got all of the passes for the day to the chagrin of the day-ticketers.

I totally agree with this (see above post). ; In fact, I don't think DVC members matter as much to WDW as AP'ers matter to DLR. ; If you look at all of the attention to the minutiae, DLR trounces WDW. ; These small changes, seasonal layovers, plussing of attractions, etc., all lend credence to the assertion that AP holders matter to DLR more than DVC members matter to WDW.

Still, I agree, neither group matters more than first time guests. ; Thus, when there is conflict between the interests of the two parties, first time guests trump. ; However, I don't think there is such a conflict between DVC/AP and first timers on the Lights of Winter issue.

I also doubt yelling will make much of a difference (other than maybe making the company think harder before making the next cut), but it's worth a shot. ; It may not be probably, but it's possible. ; Plus, I don't have much better to do in class today.

 

[Grumpwurst]

You are not a guaranteed customer once you buy into DVC. ; You can sell DVC, default on your loan (if you have one), pay your dues but not use DVC, pay your dues and go elsewhere. ; The initial up front money Disney receives is great for it, but it also wants those members to spend money in the parks. ; Unsatisfied DVC members aren't going to spend as much money.

See Roger's comment. ; Disney views DVC-ers as guaranteed and locked in, just like AP-holders. ; As a company they don't really want to even acknowledge companies like DVC-By-Resale even exist...at least not publically

This is the first I've heard of those studies. ; I don't exactly think that's an analogous comparison. ; After 9/11, people stopped traveling because of a fear of traveling. ; Disney didn't cause that. ; Disney, however, directly impacts the quality of its own parks. ; DVC members may continue to come in both instances, but I think in the latter circumstance, they (some, at least), will 'voice' their displeasure by spending less.

I didn't mean to infer that Disney caused the slowdown after the terrorist attacks. ; Fear was a motivator to not come (we didn't let it impact us one bit). ; But they did a study on who was still coming to the parks and that study showed it was Annual Passholders and members of the DVC by an overwhelming majority. ; It's that data that sparked the massive DVC building and membership drive. ; It's why calling it Disney's Best Kept Secret became such a joke. ; Prior to the attacks, it was a best kept secret, afterwards with all the marketing they couldn't say that anymore.

I am not saying DVC or AP members matter more than first time guests. ; Doing so would be insane. ; Obviously first timers matter much, much more. ; However, both groups matter. ; Disney cannot simply forsake one demographic and rely on another, because doing so will cause it to slip. ; Even a slight slip matters from a business perspective.

In my line of work with legal IT consultancy, first time customers are good, but long time loyal clients are what keep you afloat during the trying times. ; But lately, we've noticed a shift with our competitors where they are going for the big-time first time clients and could care less if they stick with you when the project is over. ; Why? ; Because the first time client is big money, the repeated business aftwards is chump change in comparison.

But, that chump change keeps you going when you swing and miss over and over again on getting those big-time clients who are new to the company.

Disney is now focused on that big money of the rack rate customer. ; They have long lost sight that those who travel at least once a year to the parks are worth something

 

[Tim]

The lights are actually sitting off the side of the road on backstage lane, at least as of yesterday. ; As someone else said, don't believe the hype until you see it yourself. ;

 

[Tim]

Disney is now focused on that big money of the rack rate customer. ; They have long lost sight that those who travel at least once a year to the parks are worth something

hence the fact that Mickey and Minnie are getting booted in favor of more princesses and fairies. ; He who sells the most merchandise wins. ;

 

[WDWFigment]

See Roger's comment. ; Disney views DVC-ers as guaranteed and locked in, just like AP-holders. ; As a company they don't really want to even acknowledge companies like DVC-By-Resale even exist...at least not publically


I didn't mean to infer that Disney caused the slowdown after the terrorist attacks. ; Fear was a motivator to not come (we didn't let it impact us one bit). ; But they did a study on who was still coming to the parks and that study showed it was Annual Passholders and members of the DVC by an overwhelming majority. ; It's that data that sparked the massive DVC building and membership drive. ; It's why calling it Disney's Best Kept Secret became such a joke. ; Prior to the attacks, it was a best kept secret, afterwards with all the marketing they couldn't say that anymore.

In my line of work with legal IT consultancy, first time customers are good, but long time loyal clients are what keep you afloat during the trying times. ; But lately, we've noticed a shift with our competitors where they are going for the big-time first time clients and could care less if they stick with you when the project is over. ; Why? ; Because the first time client is big money, the repeated business aftwards is chump change in comparison.

But, that chump change keeps you going when you swing and miss over and over again on getting those big-time clients who are new to the company.

Disney is now focused on that big money of the rack rate customer. ; They have long lost sight that those who travel at least once a year to the parks are worth something

Since I assume neither of us actually knows the company's rationales for acting, or business plan, all we can do is speculate. ; I think I've set forth reasons that Disney should take into account the interests of DVC/AP holders when making business decisions when said interests are not in conflict with first time guests. ; I think we are both saying (to an extent) the same thing in that guests other than first timers should matter. ; If those guests don't matter to Disney, the company is erring. ; As you put it, both types of customers matter. ; It was more justifiable back when the economy was hot (especially since space in the parks and resorts is finite) to go for the big bucks, but now that things aren't so hot, the flaws with that plan are becoming clear.

You didn't imply that 9/11 was Disney's fault. ; I was just distinguishing your comparison on that basis.

 

[Roger]

; They have long lost sight that those who travel at least once a year to the parks are worth something

I think they want to change somewhat however. ; D23 is an example.

Except to paraphrase Grand Moff Tarkin, they're taking a huge risk, and here's why: ; They didn't market D23 to anyone but the fanatical fans, and...by having very limited admission events, without a system where you only get to go to 1 every xx months, you'll risk alienating the same fans you want to attract. ;

Example: ; I went through my own up and down Disney time. ; Between 1989 and 2004 I wasn't that interested in the parks. ; Went in 94, and then in summer 98 it came back in full force, through 2000. ; That year, while a Disney wedding is fun, the honeymoon wasn't that great (CM issues, major room issues), and earlier in the year was the great POTC event of '00. ; While the event and special ride through was great, the merchandising was horrible. ; Stayed on Main Street til 2 am to get the merchandise, still had hours long line; some people had to stay past 5 am to get theirs (and note the park reopened at 8 am). ; Went back during the afternoon (same day) and our merchandise STILL wasn't ready....in an effort to stymie the eBay crowd, they ended up alienating a lot of fans. ;

Then in Feb 2001 DCA opened up and "you'll need to upgrade your AP to visit...at twice the price". ; I only went to DCA once during that time on a press ticket. ; But at least I got to experience Superstar Limo and eat at the Soap Opera Bistro.

So from 2001 to 2004,not much magic for me (we went a few times), until mid 2004 when my oldest was old enough to really enjoy the park[nb]He first visited when he was 7 days old[/nb] did the "magic" return for me. ; (not to mention visiting just to play Millionaire before it left!)

I've seen the park[nb]Walt's, not Roy's[/nb] decline and now begin to get back to where they should be... ; unfortunately I see WDW doing the same things DL did about 10 years ago.

WDW didn't want to spend the money on Star Tours and Ariel's Undersea Adventures. ; Those decisions were made for them by TDB. ; It's like I'm watching Pressler's Regime again, but in slower motion. ; Where short term savings were made at the expense of the guest experience.....