Booted!

[RocketTom]

I've done this before. I get to the DLR Downtown Disney area about an hour before sunrise. I want to catch the "CALIFORNIA" letters while the sky has that great Indigo Blue, but without all the people around ; the letters. (I guess I'm kinda nuts that way. ; ) This morning was forcasted to be cloudless, and it WAS! (Good going weather men)

I went with my son (and his Nikon D90) and my trusty D200 backup and got to the area around 5:30 a.m. Luck would have it that they had hosed down the area about a half hour before we got there. With the weather we've been having, it meant that the ground was still wet. I got some single shots, but I also decided to snap for some HDR. On the entrance shot, I accidently had the camera on ISO 400 (death for HDR on a D200) but included it anyways. I was also shooting with a 14-24 which has a HUGE front element that bulges out, so I was also catching some lens flare from the area lights.

Right after that last shot, I had something happen that has NEVER happened before - a security guard kicked us out. I've done this before, and have even engaged other security guards while shooting. (I want to make sure they know what I'm after, and they're *usually* supportive.) The reason he gave was that I could not take pictures while there wasn't any public in the area. I pointed out there were two kids on their bikes riding IN the DTD area, even riding past him. They count as public, right? And if we're public, doesn't that count that public is around? (OK, circular argument. ; : ) The reason I was there was to catch the CALIFORNIA letters before they're permanently removed on Monday. Nope, can't. Even if I've done this many times before? Nope, you just never got caught. Even if I talked with security WHILE I as there? Nope, can't. I need to get permission.

The only time I've run into problems IN Disneyland was I went with my camera on a day that Miley Cirus was there and they were clamping down on all "professional" looking cameras. (I still was allowed in when I proved my lens was not a "telephoto". I didn't show them my Point-n-Shoot that goes to 200mm...)

So, I guess I'm calling Disney today to find out their policy and see if the public is not allowed in DTD during certain times of the day (or night). Anybody else have this problem? (Or am I the only loon who tries to get these shots w/o people in them?)

 

[Grumpwurst]

There was a Disney blogger who got kicked out of Disneyland's Downtown Disney for taking pictures WHEN the public was there who used the same arguments that you did: ; I have done this before, I have engaged security on previous visits with them not informing me that I was doing anything wrong, etc. ;


In that blogger's case he got belligerent and the police got involved. ; I have heard that in the case of Disney Security, you are almost always dealing with former military and/or police. ; On top of that, you pretty much have to do what they tell you or risk getting kicked out for life. ; They wield a lot of power.

When I was at WDW in October, I went through the bag check line, turned around and started taking pictures of my wife going through the bag check (my 6 month old daughter was asleep in her baby carrier strapped to her chest). ; The security guard then whipped around, told me that it was illegal to take pictures of the "goings on" in the bag check line, demanded I delete my pictures or get my camera confiscated, then proceeded to do a full pat down of my person. ; Remember I had already cleared bag check. ; This was at Animal Kingdom. ; I had been told by Cast Member friends that this security person was not correct and pictures could be taken and unless he had suspicion of my possessing a weapon had no right to pat me down. ; But, in order to deal with it, I'd have to ruin my vacation and go to Guest Relations and file a complaint. ; In my opinion, just not worth it.

 

[WillCAD]

I've heard stories of people being booted from DTD in both Anaheim and Orlando when using a tripod. Disney prohibits professional photography on property, which is fine with me, but they seem to use equipment as the judge of whether a person is a pro or not - if the camera is big and black, it must be pro. If the lens is long and heavy, it must be pro. If someone is using a tripod, they must be pro.

It's a pain.

 

[zackiedawg]

I'd still imagine it's the exception and not the rule - those who have received such treatment just got lucky and won the lottery that day...seems that thousands of folks use tripods and carry large cameras with interchangeable lenses and don't have any issues at all, so even if this is a legitimate 'policy' it isn't something I really worry too much about since odds are still 1 in 1,000 or greater that I'll have any problems. ; And if I do get lucky that day, and have a run-in with security, I find it makes life much easier and happier to simply comply, and move on - another day, another time. ; So far, no run-ins myself - despite tripods, remote shutter releases, and big white lenses...and that's spending 30+ days a year shooting all around WDW property.

I'd imagine that shooting at 5:30am as the only people in the area, it would be a little easier to win the lottery that day - since noone else is playing! ; So I'm not too surprised to hear that a security guard confronted you - I agree with your procedure to contact Disney and confirm what the official policy is though - if the official policy is that photography is allowed and you should not have been restricted, then it is in Disney's best interest to make sure security personnel know what's allowed - and I'd let them know in a factual and friendly way what happened. ; If the official policy is no photography, restricted photography, or restricted times to shoot, then accept it and thank them - no need to mention security guard names as they were in the right. ; Good luck!

 

[HW]

well said Justin

 

[RocketTom]

Justin: Exactly right. So I called Public Relations (the folks that the operator put me in touch with), and they didn't understand what the hoopla is all about.

Here's the fun part - I was told that the person I want to talk to is on vacation, could I wait until next week? My reply was that next week the letters get removed, hence my trying to get the pictures this week. The response was "The letters are getting removed next week? That's news to me!" (And this from public relations???) I was told that someone would call back but no call so far. I'll wait until later in the day to press the issue again.

And to be fair, the security guard was firm but polite. I pressed the issue (hard) twice, and we shook hands when parted. I understand he's doing his job, but yeah, they sometimes weild a bit of power around that they just don't have. The whole reason I was there during the wee hours of the morning was that I wouldn't have to get in the publics way. With nobody around, could I still use a tripod? Or were rules the rules? Is it the intent, or the word? For security, they can't violate the word as that could get them fired. We see it as stupid reactions, they see it as keeping a paycheck.

Separate issue: My daughter got a part time holiday gig working retail over in FantasyLand and witnessed just how rude, impolite and obnoxious people can get first hand. She witnessed an encounter but was then fingered as the person causing it. Security was called, and after talking to a couple of other guests (who confirmed my daughters account) the idiot was escourted out of the park. Those are the people security has to deal with all the time. after a couple of THOSE encounters, I know I would be a little "testy"...

 

[goofmick]

It only takes a few like that to make it tough on the people who want to play nice.

 

[gary]

i understand trying to keep one's job, but i have to belligerently draw the line somewhere, ray, there is no way some off brand gate security is patting my junk down, no sir, not today, charge me or get out my face. that is just not allowed without it. i might have to pull out the old masterbadge at some point, but without real police, and some high level supervisor present, no way disney security touches my junk


THOSE WHO SURRENDER FREEDOM TO GAIN SECURITY, DESERVE NEITHER

 

[Grumpwurst]

ray, there is no way some off brand gate security is patting my junk down, no sir, not today, charge me or get out my face. that is just not allowed without it. i might have to pull out the old masterbadge at some point, but without real police, and some high level supervisor present, no way disney security touches my junk

I would've drawn the line at getting my "junk" touched as well. ; I think Nancy would've too and I'm pretty positive that would've gotten some other guests attention. ; He just patted my pockets since I was wearing cargo shorts, had me turn around and he patted my back pockets.

What makes me laugh is this is the second time this has happened to me this year. ; Earlier, I was taking pictures of my son, Kai, at PetSmart enjoying the birds in the cages and a store employee came up and told me I'm not allowed to take pictures in there. ; Nancy gave me the "look" because she knew I was going to say something but I wanted to say, "I don't see a sign out front forbidding photography"

 

[RocketTom]

If I take picture inside of a store, I usually ask for permission. For outside the store, if it's in an open public area, I feel it's wide open. I ran into one occasion where I was taking a shot of a window display (of American Indian artifacts - was very cool), and the sales clerk came out and told me that I couldn't do it. So after a bit, I came back with my wife and had her "pose" by the window - being somewhat careful not to block it. No issues then.

I haven't heard back from Public Relations, so I went over today because this looks like the last clear morning before the letters get taken down - even though it IS New Year's Eve. Part of me was thinking that they'll open the area up early to get folks in to buy tickets - but that was NOT the case. The park gates open for "Magic Hours" at 7, and by 6:45 they had just opened the bag-check areas. (By 6:15, there had to be a couple of hundred guests already in line being told they could get in at 6.) That, and they had a strick "no tripod" policy in place for today - understandable with the huge crowds they've been experiencing and anticipte. Even though I was not going into the parks, I was not allowed past bag check with my tripod. By that time, the light I was after was gone so I headed home.

I *may* try one last time in the evening on Sunday, but I'm not sure that'll work since they start unblocking passes and the crowds are anticipated to be high again.

Oh well. Was a thought.

 

[zackiedawg]

One other possibility if you want to get those letters without people all around them might be to use some strong or stacked ND filters, and use a series of long exposures. ; With 20-30 second exposures, most anyone moving through the scene should be gone, those that stop or slow within the frame during an exposure could be removed when stacking multiple exposures - say 5 or even 10 stacked 20-30 second exposures. ; That should allow you to get every space in the frame without a person in it in at least one of the 10 exposures, and will let you stack them in layers, pull through the empty areas in each while erasing out the people layers (and also erasing out any prominent ghost streaks from slower moving people or bright clothing), and then merge. ; It sounds like a lot of work, but wouldn't actually be anything more than standing in one place with a tripod, and pressing the remote or shutter release every 30-40 seconds for a few minutes...being careful to avoid any moments when big families stop with a baby carriage right in the middle of your shot and have a conversation.

If you can still find an empty moment, great - but this might at least be an option.

 

[RocketTom]

Yeah, I thought of that. It's the same method used in the movie 405:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tpx6o4gvmXE

Around 20 seconds, there's a great camera pan showing an empty southbound 405 with a bumper to bumper northbound. They did it by taking hundreds of images - and between the myriad of pictures they were able to piece together one image with no traffic.

The problem I have is there are hundreds of daytime shots, even more evening shots and a few nighttime shots. The thing is that I'm looking for that sweet spot after sunset before it goes to night time where the sky is indigo blue. Because of the mass of people, the only other time is when it moves from night time towards daytime, and there is that sweet spot when the sky is again indigo blue:

Unfortunately, that's also a VERY popular time for folks to be crawling all over the letters (around 5:30 p.m.). The color of the sky lasts only about 15-20 minutes. While I can also set up the camera and expose once for the sky/background, I would need hundreds of shots to reconstruct the image w/o people. Besides, there are other angles that look cool as well, and without having another photog there, it's durned near impossible. (Gallery here: http://www.thecalderwoods.org/tom/DCA-100906/index.html)

That previous gallery was taken on an overcast morning, and the blue quality of sky lasted only 5 minutes. As soon as the sun illuminated the sky above, it went very grey. Before that, it didn't pierce the clouds and was black. Having a clear day is critical to get the biggest bang for your buck.

The saga so far: Disney Public Relations called me back, saying they talked with security and they have no idea why the guard took the actions he did. People go through the DTD area all the time after hours, including very early morning joggers. Today was an exception, with an anticipation of one of the three busiest days of the year, so the esplinade was closed. (While yesterday was a good day, I also have a reoccuring heart issue that popped it's ugly head a few days ago, so I was at the hospital. Everything is cool now. Stupid heart.) It looks like I *may* have clear weather tomorrow, but definately rain on Sunday, maybe into Monday. Tomorrow is anticipated to be very crowded, both by being Jan 1st and also on a Saturday, and Monday night is when they're due to start removing the letters, so Monday may be my only day. You can't control the weather, you can only roll with the punches.

It's just one of those things - I'd really like a final image of the CALIFORNIA, and I want to do it as best as possible. I'm a big fan of getting it right in the picture rather than compositing the image in Photoshop. With the murals already gone and the candy-cane treatment on it, you would be able to date the image to a final time.

While they blew it on so many things on so many levels at DCA, the entrance was a hit. There are more than a few families that take their Christmas picture on the letters. They'll be relocated, I'm sure. I don't know where, or even if - but the public response has been strong. It may be located to an Orange County area (where it would soon be graffiti bait) but not to a Disney area. I just want to capture this period of time, space, location forever-ish. (Or until my hard drive crashes and the backups fail..... ; : ; )

 

[RocketTom]

So here's hoping this is the last chapter to this soap opera. Since getting booted out a week ago, I have not been able to get back in to try again due to schedules (theirs and mine) or weather. Since today is rumored to be the last day for the letters, I decided to head in to try it again even though we've been having rain for the last couple of days (snow, if you're in the mountains or high desert).

The problem with clouds is that the moment of indigo blue is shortened - and the thicker the clouds, the shorter the time period. The rain was real light but that meant I couldn't use my 14-24 (the front element bulges out and becomes a rain-drop collection device). My D700 is in the shop, so I grabbed my trusty D200 with it's 18-200 and headed in.

And the best part? They removed the Christmas overlay last night. LAST NIGHT! AAAHHHHRRRRRGGGGGG! It's still the last day for Christmas in the parks, so the Golden Gate still has the lights on it. Jeeez. But you snap anyways. Always, just snap.

I walked through the Downtown Disney area with nobody stopping me. When I got to the esplinade, there was a cast member taking pictures (with her iPhone) of the individual letters - I wasn't the only one with this idea. It was about 6:10 a.m. and I started snapping, even though the skies were still too dark for color. About 6:25, a security guard came up and started talking about camera settings (which is usually what happens) when who should show up but the fellow that booted me out last week. I told him I did *exactly* what he recommended and nobody had an issue (including security) about what I was going. He said the opposite. He also said that I couldn't be there until 6:30 a.m. I then pointed out it was 6:28, so he (very) reluctantly said for me to go on.

At that point, the sky was *perfect*. I shot about 5 minutes worth and another guard came up and said I had to leave. Why? They always clear out the esplinade at 6:30. Yup, one guard says I can't show up until 6:30, the other said I had to get out at 6:30. ARGH! By the time I went over to bag check and collapsed my tripod, asked another guard when I could come back in (7:45 a.m.), the sky had gone past the magic blue point into cloud-grey. If there were no clouds, this period is about 20-25 minutes long. This morning, it was less than 5.

The results:

Non-HDR. It was lightly raining. With the D200, I had to back up further than I wanted to when I used the D700 because of area lights. The byproduct of this was that banners showed up along the sides.

HDR treated (5 images)

Another 5 image HDR

This shot was only 5 minutes earlier than the shots above. On a clear day, the sky would be incredible.

5 minutes earlier again from the image above it. I wanted to get the compass in the shot, but because of the rain, they had those "Don't Slip Here Stupid" cones up (you can see the corner of one on the right). This was the best I could do. I don't know if all this was worth it - it was just one of those things I wanted (had) to catch in this unique way.

So in the end, I was totally frustrated with Security. I understand they have a job to do and I can appreciate that. But when one guard says one thing and another says another - and they directly conflict with each other, I can only sit back an laugh. Most of you are with me on this one. I am willing to play with the rules, it's just that the rules change due to the whims of whomever is the enforcer. Tell me what I can and can't do, but don't jerk me around like that.

I was frustrated that the candy cane overlay had been removed (along with Mickey and Goofy).

I was frustrated that I couldn't do this with a clear sky.

I was frustrated that I'm really not sure all of this was worth it. It's just that I haven't seen this kind of picture with this kind of sky with no people in the shot. I guess I'm kind of weird that way.

This one was unique and I doubt I'll want to take a picture in this area at this time again. (maybe...)

(To see a bigger same of this kind of sky/picture, go to this gallery and start with #20 to watch the sky fade to that blue I keep harping about.)

 

[PolynesianMedic]

Did you ever get anywhere with Guest relations? ; I would be curious to see what they might be able to tell you.

 

[RocketTom]

I called Guest Relations the first day (Monday) as recommended by the security guard. The person they wanted me to talk to was on vacation, so I was told they would call back. Wednesday got another call to say they didn't forget about me. Another person called and left a message wanting me to clarify what went on the previous Monday. I called back, was told that they had no idea Security did what they did. They had called Security and was told there was no problem.

Part of the issue was that the person I really needed to clear this with was not handy, but because of the timing of the removal I couldn't wait.

 

[Grumpwurst]

Now if you could ever get someone to provide you a letter stating that your activities are not banned, it sure would be entertaining to hear you document the reaction of the security personnel once you whipped that out and showed them. ; "I know you are doing your job and I'm not a professional photographer, but according to this letter I received from Guest Relations, I'm allowed to be here"

 

[RocketTom]

You apparently need more than just a letter. GR has to notify security as well. (Makes sense - scammers are out there)

Here's the rub: I know that a lot of us would LOVE to shoot inside (or outside) the park after hours. There are so many levels of clearances that you need to hurdle that the only ones that are worse is the government. It isn't who you clear, it's who didn't you clear, which makes your odds of getting booted rather significant. I've loitered after closing many times, and only one time was I hastled by security (the guard stood *right* *at* *my* *shoulder* as I shot.) Usually they're trying to learn how we do it just like any other person would. To do it right, you'd need to be employed by the Mouse - but then the pictures wouldn't be yours. ; ; You can expect them to clear the cards for you. (Again, this makes sense from a business viewpoint.)

Now if an avid (rabid?) group of photogs were to call them up and ask permission, signing waivers, being escorted, then maybe.... Just maybe..... ;

 

[RocketTom]

I just want to capture this period of time, space, location forever-ish. (Or until my hard drive crashes and the backups fail..... ; : ; )

Stupid Murphy. Yup, hard drive crashed last night. Backups? *almost* everything (missed December). Was able to mount the drive through a USB adapter and get the stuff I was missing. I still had these images on my laptop (that I use first). Pictures look safe. Other projects on the drive *may* be safe as well. We'll see when I get another drive in there.

If you do backups, you would be advised to do them again. Right now. Go on - we'll wait.

For those of you who don't do backups, how many tears are acceptable to shed when you realize that your photography life just flitted away? Come on - 1.5 TB hard drives from Fry's are on sale for less than $100. No excuses.

 

[gary]

better yet, invest in a raid setup

 

[RocketTom]

I did - on my other system... (New hard drive is currently formatting.)

So I had to go by Disneyland on my way to Fry's and decided to drop in to see what it looks like today. Besides, the sky was heading to blue - so why not?

They didn't remove the letters, but they sure walled them off something good. Entrance goes around the front to the left, turn a corner and enter through the turn styles. You can *just* see the letters above the wall.

This will be a road block to be sure until it's all paved in. They should be starting work on the entrance turnstyles as well. Interesting times. I saw a shot with the Monorail (Blue), and decided to wait for Orange to come around, framed in sky. But only Blue was running and it was a 15 minute wait to this one:

Walking out, couldn't help but snap just one more:

All these were handheld on my (freshly) repaired D700, 24-70 lens, with ISOs wandering around 3200-6400.

And no, I didn't get hassled at all. ; :